The french site claims Starship used over five times the research development budget, and the craft looks like an enlarged EZ, so nothing that novel aerodynamically. Sorry a Starship – BEST)” He said it was a common joke. But the problem is not the FAA. The gear was locked down with some braces on the actuator links on the nose wheel. I own a Piaggio P-180 which resembles the Starship. Jake, Bill’s remark was referencing the fact that Richard Collins, perhaps the pre-eminent aviation journalist of the last 50 years, passed away last week. Thanks for the memories, Juan. BeechTalk. Neither did the airspeed indicator in the actual airplane. They made honest mistakes. http://www.aerospaceqrd.com But the configuration is all Burts. your own Pins on Pinterest (I half expected to read that the pax lives were saved because everyone donned cheeseheads prior to impact..) My next trip to WI…, I have 24K plus hours total time. A few months later, the 85% prototype made its first public outing at the NBAA in Dallas. Hopefully long shall fly the Starship! Praise the designers and builders of such craft. You want to rig an engine today? Really. Needless to say, Boeing is now making 787’s with composite fuselages. I give my kids a little history lesson about the Starship and what a revolutionary plane it is. You do not have to be Richard Collins or Ernest Gann - simply a GA pilot with a story you'd share with friends sitting in the hangar. Join thousands of other pilots - sign up for our informative email newsletter. Photos: 1 2 3. In a conventional metal airframe there are many lap joints in the skin and other spots where components are fastened. Beech had invited a gathering of customers and attendees to the side of the runway. To say that the Starship was ahead of its time is an understatement and even today, it is one impressive machine. none of these GA designs are optimized, much less the starship. The Starship flew a couple of circles over the runway, made a short field landing and flew off into the morning sun. Friday 2009.12.04 by gravityloss. An engine start, taxi, and take-off of a Piaggio Avanti from the Livermore, CA airport. In hindsight they should have pulled the plug when the weight went zooming up, but it’s always hard for any of us to give up on a project. It primarily shares a similar, yet very weird design but it also shares the Starship’s low price tag. I think that the Piaggio could have a greater success if it could have a more affordable cost. A pusher prop produces more thrust on the same power, and because the props are aft of the cabin, the passengers experience jet-like smoothness and quiet. State organisations somehow forced to buy Italian. In both the Starship and the Skymaster, I wonder what they could have been with 2018 technology, composites, FAA acceptance of new ideas (and not bad ideas of over-engineering 3000lbs of unneeded structure) and modern marketing. ), Your email address will not be published. even a love struck pilot like yourself should realize the density is the same. Yes. One of the main changes resulting from flight testing the proof-of-concept was a variable geometry canard wing. More importantly, why did you fail to consider how the airplane would perform if it were designed to Burt Rutan’s original design? I was actually working on a free print-it-yourself trump card game with rocket engines some years back, to help familiarize oneself with their features, I still think I have the publisher files stashed somewhere. The Lear Fan was also a pusher but with a single propeller. Most of…, Glad to read that all ended well. Successful technologies today seldom come about due to a grand “Eureka” event. We immediatly drove the few miles to the airport but did not see the plane anywhere. [citation needed] Beechcraft President Linden Blue was the executive sponsor of the project at its inception. It was all kinds of floppy until it was glued to the rigid pieces either side, but it printed really fast and light! What do you think of this plane? The answer to that question is Linden Blue, Hi Ed, Its a model of the Starship. Not many P180's in this part of Europe, so I'm seeking information from owners/operators/pilots of this fine piece of machinery. For years I have grabbed my binoculars and run out the back patio door of my house when I hear the distinctive sound of a Starship cruise into Carlsbad, Ca airport. Air Tractor AT 802/802A/802AF/802F With that said, let’s stop the mud-slinging and keep the dialogue professional and educational. It wasn’t as quiet as expected, and certainly not on par with a jet. Perhaps next year when this pandemic is over, I also will do the $100.00 meal again. That example is duplicated all over that plane. Don’t remember the roll rate, but the roll was very smooth, little nose drop, and easy to do. Hi Mark, Even the afore-mentioned aerodynamic complexities might have plausible answers for today, to at least reduce some of the geometrically-inevitable challenges. That was the setup for the decision makers at Raytheon. Aircraft designs in the 70-80’s were not as solid and vetted as they are today (and today I argue that every airplane I see is just reconstituted designs from the 80’s). The P-180 is extremely noisy sounding like an oversize mosquito. You want to overhaul your landing gears (special tools, and 1 OEM) here we come. However, the design lessons learned, the sustainability of platform lessons learned, and the composite manufacturing lessons learned were instrumental for the aerospace industry. The FAA might understand that carbon fiber is stronger than the traditional materials and gets stronger with age if the aerodynamics were applied to a 21st Century STARSHIP. Feb 8, 2015 - This Pin was discovered by Диана Хорошавина. A close look at a composite structure tells you nothing about what’s going on below the surface. These rare birds are always a very pleasant sight to be seen, thanks to the pilot for bringing it to Wichita and keeping it nice and low! I will submit that the citation suffers from horrible reliability of its airframe due to corrosion and fatigue. There is no denying Burt Rutan’s accomplishments. In this month’s Aircraft Comparative Analysis, Mike Chase provides information on two popular turboprops for the purpose of valuing the King Air 350i and 350iER. The Starship is a bit bigger overall but still, it has a proportionally stupendous wing area and suffers high weight and high drag as a consequence, being slower despite more power. I think hindsight is always 20/20. From afar, the planes may appear similar, but it should be noted that the Avanti has a normal looking tail; the Starship doesnt really have a tail at all. Competition in a man’s sport: top six women in early US flight, Remembering a Christmas tragedy 50 years later, The forever weekend: flying my Cheetah to Canada. Bests, But in the air, knots, not looks, matter most. Starship 2000A, Mac. His record speaks for itself. And composites seemed to be at least somewhat proven. The Starship is probably the quietest turboprop ever built. Are there any prop problems on the Piaggio? Hindsight is 20-20 and obviously it wasn’t a success. A lovely aircraft does not need to be an efficient one, nor the vice versa, but often looks go with good handling. Not necessarily evenly, but divided. Did you know that most of the articles at Air Facts are written by readers like you? How many hours of Starship time do you have Mark? New to Air Facts? Turboprops hold a vital fuel efficiency edge. Beech should have taken my advice and donated three STARSHIPS to George Lucas for STAR WARS and then they would have been hot tickets. A 1980s wave of new-generation planes, developed to appeal to Fortune 500 clients, included Piaggio's Avanti and Beech Aircraft Corp.'s very similar Starship. Together with a a select group of Beech executives, we saw this very unusual machine take to the skies. My earlier comment about cast steel ashtrays is not fiction. But I couldn’t help thinking what could have, and should have, been instead of the Starship. Turboprops Compare Mike Chase | 26th May 2017 Back to Articles. Instead of the big wing being substantially behind the CG, a three surface has the wing just behind the CG. The rear end of the large chord wing is so far behind that the nose down moment from bigger flaps could simply stall the canard. It’s so quiet, you can hear the Hobbs meter ticking off tenths of an hour. When the model is running in the water tunnel, a dye want will fill up this zone and show almost no flow through this junction. If the market would have excepted this great aircraft and mass production took place, I wonder what James Raisbeck would have contributed to the Starship??? To understand the roots of the Starship program decisions, we must think back to the early 1980s when they were made. It is majority all composite as well. Because of their unusual-ness in the broader aviation world, many pusher designs are relatively famous. Looks to me like the Piaggio design has less of a divergent nozzle effect, but still some, which I guess is what accounts for the crazy noise it makes and no, it can’t be good for the prop. His designs would not meet FAR Part 23 or 25, and instead of changing his designs to meet certification and safety requirements, he offered his usual lip service about the FAA and design criteria. Whoa, I don’t think Mac deserves that. Hope you took the start. I was there from the beginning of the construction of the 85% POC, there was never any other configuration. Just in a range of size/carrying-capacities. That was a good topic. Reality Check: Voyager, a far more ambitious project than the Lindberg crossing, was a Burt Rutan design. While your article certainly is not complimentary of the design or technology, you don’t mention any of the incredible technological lessons learned from Starship that cascaded into various parts of the company, and not including Textron. Mac Mc. Landing speed is surprisingly similar, 150+-3 km/h for both. And while we are at it, we also REALLY need Super-STOL composite amphibians in a range of sizes… Shared overall geometries. Great explanation, Mark. AQRDstarship: 13th Jul 2017 13:24: 4 Attachment(s) There are four or so still operating. It was not possible to combine all six primary flight instruments into a single display. Stamped Stainless steel?? How the decision was made is also quite interesting and would make a nice second chapter to your story about the Starship. It was the people of North Ireland, as I recall, that footed the bill for the Lear fiasco through tax donations to build a factory and support development. Piaggio designed the Avanti to be the perfect blend between futuristic design and luxury private jet. At a meeting in Utah, a group of us was challenged to have just two people to pick up a wing. The word luddite comes to mind. The mind boggles. Wondering which one of you Starship owners is buzzing over my house??? The 85 percent scale model of the Starship was a stroke of genius. Mac Mc, please keep up your writing. I didn’ realize that the Starship was such a blunder, or that He was selling another Beech offering; a Beechjet, if I remember correctly. What are your contributions? 2)an un-nerving vibration throughout the airframe when power was reduced to flight idle at top of decent- initially attributed to the huge composite props; He has private pilot privileges in single-engine airplanes, commercial pilot in helicopters and ATP in airplanes with more than one engine. If these goals could be achieved, and if Jet A went from the then current price of $1.25 per gallon to $2.00, the airplane would be a commercial success. The light weight and almost instant build that the Rutan shop could do for an experimental airplane had to have mislead Beech executives, at least a little, on how long it would take and how much it would weigh, to build the real thing. The avionics were 25 years ahead of the technology. The set up is: Buy a (used) turboprop, preferably multi-engine, to seat at least 5 people comfortably with range to fly Scandinavia to southern Europe non-stop. Beechcraft King Air 350i/350ER/350IER PT6A-42 Beechcraft King Air F90-1/C90GT ... Beechcraft Starship PT6A-67A Beechcraft King Air C90GTi PT6A-135A Cessna 208/208B Caravan I ... Piaggio Avanti II / P-180 PT6A-66B / -66 Pilatus PC-7/MKII Turbo Trainer PT6A-25C Piper Malibu Needless to say, this was THE EVENT of that year’s NBAA. Furthermore, I invite you to interview the 3 guys flying the airplane and the guys that work on the airplane and keep them flying. Some believe a forward wing (canard) instead of a conventional horizontal tail is more efficient because it always lifts while the normal tail produces balancing downforce. Mac, interesting and overall accurate story. Page 1 of 1 Page 1 of 1 PIAGGIO Aircraft For Sale - 10 Listings | Controller.com Rather, they come from lots of people all having little Eurekas and little “damn, I was sure that would work” moments. I enjoyed your article. The design was originated by Beechcraft in January 1980 as Preliminary Design 330 (PD 330). Beechcraft Starship and Piaggio Avanti side-by-side - YouTube As the Starship empty weight soared, the whole program would have collapsed except for a new FAA certification program called commuter category. The flaps aren’t even necessary, they reduce stall by just 5 knots. Likewise, contemplating why we aren’t seeing Beech Starships filling our skies is fascinating. Your email address will not be published. Could these be the reasons why the Starship never became a commercial success, with only 53 having been operated commercially? This is the reason the Starship makes such a weird sound, the poor air is being tortured!!! Piaggio-Avanti vs Beechcraft Starship. I saw the original Ventral fin design. Mac Mc. PT6A-67A. All elevator control is on the forward canard, contrary to the piaggio which has a conventional stabilizer/elevator/rudder. And the only way to initiate a reasonable roll rate is to stomp the rudder hard as you turn the wheel. That’s physics and only God can change that. A walk around an FBO, or better still and airline terminal, shows you what really works in terms of doing what owners want and keeping the builder in business. The odd-looking Avanti sure makes a lot of noise during take-off, just as the Starship, due to the different airflow speeds over and under the wing loading the propeller unevenly. Adam S Frisch wrote: Sinus wave, saw-tooth noise … The three surface configuration of Avanti could also help to minimize trim drag in cruise. About 25 yrs ago I was blessed with the fortune to see a Starship fly overhead near Doylestown Pa. This is below FAA stage-3 noise limits, which set a maximum of 89 EPNdB for takeoff. Another factor is that, with regard to selling an unusual configuration in the corporate market, a conservative design has an advantage. 30 years later its systems including landing gear, and other mechanical systems are easily repairable and supportable in the field. At the time we were led to believe that Linden Blue was brought in to “finish” the Starshp project, not to give it the go-ahead. Most of the Comments are correct regarding increased weight. Page 1 … Not judging good or bad, just that the certification process is a fact of life. You can’t do that with a King Air. Beechcraft 2000A Starship I on final for runway 19L at ICT. The turboprop-powered Piper Cheyenne was also faster than the Starship. And a lot of the blame goes to Beech, as you pointed out, for overreaching the needs of the market. The fuselage is tapering, the wing is tapering and the engine nacelle is tapering away. The three surface configuration allows for a far aft placement of the wing spar. Has an unlimited life of validity for its airframe? 70. BeechTalk.com • BT - The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. They range from the Piaggio Avanti and Beechcraft Starship to the large flying wing bombers produced by Northrop in the late 40’s and early 50’s such as the YB-35. A big aircraft compared to its capability? Wing sweep looks fast, and does reduce drag above critical Mach that is usually faster than Mach .70, but at turboprop speeds sweep adds headaches and penalties with no benefits. The P-180 is very efficient. Fuel burn is about half the turbofan competition. The turboprop-powered Italian Piaggio P.180 Avanti had a configuration somewhat similar to the Starship (it incorporated a canard as well as a conventional tailplane) and comparable capacity, but was faster. They put matters into better context than just examining features of things alone. The Starship could have been designed with a conventional wing and tail, much like its contemporary, the Piaggio Avanti, was. And so did memories of the crushing oil embargos of the 1970s. So if they are reporting snow on the ground can we assume the clouds will be ice free? Starship (this is nice): Avanti (this is boring and low quality): Starship: First flight in february 1986. Beech did not screw any customers with deposit deals or other financial flimflams that have been the hallmark of so many new airplane projects. And all of aviation was robbed of the really terrific airplane that a billion dollars could have created. The Starship had a cruise speed of 300 kn, so what was the reasoning behind the wing design? So Mac, I invite you to study the operational and sustainability argument as part of the starship in so much as any airplane. But apparently there is also a side story about how the decision to go forward with the design was actually made. History and Features. Because the forward wing sweep was obviously critical to airplane performance and stall behavior, lots of monitors and backup equipment were required. The Piaggio P-180 Avanti, IIRC, has the same turbines and props as the Starship, and is … A reasonable roll rate, but Beech didn ’ t lie Raytheon stockholders ’! 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Turboprop engines mounted in pusher configuration design, manufacturing, and Mac, you see 3/4 of a zealot it. Buying this expertise with the extra 3,000 lbs of unnecessary weight mandated by the FAA in insisting additional. Rudder for its airframe due to a grand “ Eureka ” event did!